Too much public commentary about Traitor or Patriot?
Not enough about what crimes the NSA have committed.

See, what I don't understand is that the NSA was doing this long before Obama took office. It was widely reported that the NSA was using google and other telecom providers to provide them with conversations, emails etc. and storing them. The original whistle blower was the tech guy for AT&T I think, who saw NSA officials install filters in servers. Watch "terms and conditions may apply" currently on instant watch, netflix. I believe frontline did a piece on it in 2007.

This is simply not new. Why all the fuss now?

GW Bush put this ability in the oval office and you can't put the genie back in the bottle. Besides, I think it's naive to think that governments aren't spying on everybody all the time as much as they can - Been doing it since governments and rulers existed. Not that I think it's right, but it's human nature.

To me, that's a defeatist attitude. It feels like you are either positioning yourself as more knowledgeable for egotistical reasons (I liked band X back when they were cool) or you have a disturbing lack of concern on the subject.

Sure, I'm not surprised either that the government, any government, is spying. Even on it's own citizens.

The scope of the spying is much much greater than ever before. It's pretty safe to assume access to all computer and internet communications, all cell phone communications, using webcams and cell phone cams at will, using cell phone and computer mics on demand as bugs, using GPS in phones to track location, the list goes on.

What's different now is Snowden is providing a focal point for public energy and media attention, to bring to focus the scope of what's happening. Vast numbers of people have had no clue about what's going on, and still don't. As citizens who are concerned about the abuses of privacy and rights that are taking place, this is a good time to speak out and join together against these abuses. Not dismiss it as old news.

By the way, I was aware of vast computerized government spying projects back in 2002, the Total Information Awareness project by DARPA. ;P

2002, noob? I was listening to conspiracy theories about Project ECHELON on talk radio in the early 90s.

:P

Psh, I was aware of the La Li Lu Le Lo in the 60s.

I wasn't "dismissing" old news, am not an egoist, and I certainly don't lack concern as I was screaming bloody murder when this first happened.

Thanks for attacking the poster and not the comment.

Snowdon is now the center of attention because the right wingers want ammunition against Obama and the dems, and the media has jumped on a story. What more do you want? Spies, illicit documents, fleeing the country, especially into an old rival. And a opportunist journalist seeking fame and fortune. Great for a novel, eh?

Long live SE. SE is Dead, Long live SE.

Thanks for your participation.

Sorry for the reactionary comments. I have that problem.

You're right, it was known that they had the capabilities. I think it was widely believed there was some discrimination involved, they were scrutinizing bad guys and with some kind of warrant/oversight. NSA admins have lied about this repeatedly, including in testimony to congress. Anyone who thought about it much thought it was a lie, but there was a war on, occaisonal "threats" were interrupted with a lot of publicity, and congress and the press, and the general public, all chose to look away. Snowden has proved that they collect it all and keep it all, and break the law in the process. That makes it pretty hard to look away.

RIght. But we all knew they were collecting and keeping data. FISA courts were created at least to mitigate its impact (whether they actually work is another matter). It also needs to be said that everybody thinks the US gov is transparent. Every agency lies. Constantly.

I think it speaks more to america's apathy and attitudes about what really goes on in their country than the actual issue. Snowdon is just a reflection of that. But on the other hand, if we already knew, why is he labeled a "whistleblower" and sparked the patriot vs traitor debate?

What scares me is security. When passwords are hacked and systems are entered through back doors so easily, abuse and coercion are right around the corner. I blame Bush for this. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Lets just hope someone is benevolent enough not to let pandoras box get opened.

You and I and other cynics believed they were spying on everybody, but we didn't "know" it, for lack of evidence. The spook community denied it. Snowden has served up some pretty compelling evidence.
The traitor question really is because he released some pretty embarrassing info re surveillance of our allies (such as reading Angela Merckel's email) and other "secrets", basically, how our foreign surveillance works.
The people who call him whisteblower are thinking of domestic surveillance, the people who call him traitor are thinking of foreign surveillance.

I read the first line... "inside the mind of Edward Snowden.."

And the first thing I thought was... "A bullet"

Hey, it's a new site and all. What if Longhair joined and started right back up with anti-GW Bush posts, like he hates his amateur paintings or some shit?

won't bother me.

Why not Aktung too, just for balance?

Sure, if he brings his socks, we'll double our user count overnight :D

Was there a username Longhair back in SE ol'

Aye, that be the very one.

He's probably in Congress now.

I wish. A genuine lefty would make things interesting.

Really, more likely that Aktung would be in congress, or at least a staffer.

Bernie Sanders is a genuine lefty but sadly doesn't make things interesting enough.

It was good to see how composed and articulate Snowden is, but there wasn't much I hadn't read before.

It would be good if we had something in our law that clearly allowed for "illegal but still the right thing to do." Yes, a trial by jury comes close. But as far as I know there is no, "found guilty under extenuating circumstances, no sentence, you are free to go."

Or maybe there is? Not that there's any way he would get a public trial by jury.

Yeah, we do have something in US law for that. It's called being rich.

He was very careful with what he had to say, pausing ever so often every question.