I am a Strange Loop -
Can thought arise out of matter? Can self, soul, consciousness, `I` arise out of mere matter? If it cannot, then how can you or I be here?
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Sunday, 9 November 2014
quote [ "Arguing that gayness is as genetically fixed as race might have bolstered our rhetoric a few years ago, but is it necessary to argue that way now? I understand that the genetic argument for homosexuality is a direct response to the tired 'You weren?t born that way' rhetoric of religious people. But in my opinion, we could strip that religious argument of much of its power if we responded like this: 'Maybe I wasn?t born this way. Now tell me why you think that matters.'" ]
My comments in the extended. Headline is shocking, but read the full article. It is an interesting argument and I hope it results in some insightful discussions.
Don't know what to think of this, but the author's opinion is as worthy of time and consideration as anyone else's in the community. While a single gay author obviously cannot speak for all gay people, I also can't tell him he's being gay wrong. Whatever any of us may think, he has a right to his own thoughts and feelings about his identity, and we should consider them. So let's have at it, shall we?
It seems the difference here is whether one can feel they own their sexual identity or like it was foisted on them. It appears to be a false dilemma; the issue here is really bigots and how they respond. If being gay is not a choice, then homophobes treat it as a disease; if it is a choice, then it's a sin. The result is condescending either way. Perhaps the choice/not choice thing is a farce, an attempt to placate a bigoted group we need not concern ourselves with. It distracts us from the fundamental issue that some people are being treated shitty; arguing why they are being treated shitty or if it's ok completely misses the point. Obviously it isn't ok to treat people badly. Curious what SE thinks. "Same Love" official video for anyone who hasn't heard it yet. I was surprised to hear this song played so much on the radio even in conservative towns. This new generation, man, they give me hope.
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Comments
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ENZ said @ 2:16am GMT on 9th Nov
[Score:3 Insightful]
I always found that argument implicitly validated discrimination for other things that are unambiguously a choice. Saying "don't blame me, god made me this way" is only putting a bandaid on the pervasive attitudes that there is something inherently wrong with that lifestyle.
As an aside, I'd be happy if the concept of sin left the human lexicon entirley. |
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ithaqua10 said @ 2:44pm GMT on 9th Nov
But the list of sins is like a checklist of things that are fun to do.
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midden said @ 7:10pm GMT on 9th Nov
That sounds like it should be a George Carlin routine.
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damnit said[1] @ 1:12pm GMT on 9th Nov
[Score:2]
"I wasn't born black. I choose to be black." - said no one ever.
Sexuality is fluid. You like who you like. It's fluidity is determined by genetics. |
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midden said @ 12:31am GMT on 10th Nov
[Score:1 Funny]
"I was born a poor black child."
- Navin Johnson |
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damnit said @ 12:38am GMT on 10th Nov
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mechanical contrivance said @ 2:09pm GMT on 9th Nov
Michael Jackson chose to be white. Just saying.
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damnit said @ 2:18pm GMT on 9th Nov
No.
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Dienes said @ 3:14pm GMT on 9th Nov
Thank you.
The gender/sex you are attracted to is strongly, primarily determined by genetics and other phylogenic factors. Engaging in behaviors interpreted to be 'gay' is a choice that is influenced by your genetics and environment. This is how we have people who are homo/bisexual who pass for straight. Likening a complex, multi-faceted aspect of the human condition such as orientation to the purely physical condition regarding the amount of melanin in their skin is asinine. Saying we need to call homo/bisexuality a choice because it gives us more agency is silly. You can't just ignore facts you don't like. What we should be focusing on, promoting, fighting for is people choosing to be OUT. That's a choice, an important one, and one people can't safely engage in in this country. |
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ENZ said @ 6:15pm GMT on 9th Nov
Actually, spend some time on Tumblr and you'll find "transrace" is apparently a thing.
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damnit said @ 10:26pm GMT on 9th Nov
Let's not make tumblr a thing. Let's start there lol
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maryyugo said @ 9:37pm GMT on 10th Nov
Pretty much nothing is exclusively decided by genetics. You inherit a tendency to respond to environment in a certain way. It does seem as if genetics is the major determinant of sexual preference but perhaps early imprinting modifies that somewhat. For sure, it is not a conscious choice. ALL the research agrees with that!
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Kelyn said @ 5:38am GMT on 9th Nov
[Score:1 Underrated]
I think I saw a video from some 1989 aerobics competition in the comments somewhere, but this is even "better" and I didn't know where to put it. Enjoy!
Shake it off! |
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Ankylosaur said @ 6:01am GMT on 9th Nov
[Score:1 Hot Pr0n]
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sanepride said[1] @ 5:36pm GMT on 9th Nov
[Score:1 Funsightful]
Of course anyone is free to decide who or what they want to have sex and relationships with. This does not preclude being hardwired for a particular preference. His argument is after all based on choices influenced by a belief system- just like the folks who say you don't have to be gay to satisfy some religious dictate. Luckily we do have a behavioral complexity that allows for flexibility, but I'd think that going against one's wired nature will usually be a struggle- maybe even a damaging one. Speaking as a lazy person I generally advocate the path of least resistance, but some folks do enjoy a challenge.
It's also worth noting that it's likely people aren't simply born gay or straight, but also many levels in between. Maybe this guy is somewhere in that region- and therefore better equipped to make his argument. |
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foobar said @ 3:32am GMT on 9th Nov
Which one annoys Tories more? I'll take that one.
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MadMarchHarris said @ 6:20am GMT on 9th Nov
The headline actually isn't that shocking. I guess most people assumed that gayness was genetic because it clearly didn't seem like a conscious choice (for a long time I did too) but if you think about how sexual identity works it doesn't seem at all surprising that gayness isn't entirely genetic/just a thing that randomly happens to you.
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bones said @ 8:01am GMT on 9th Nov
[Score:3]
I don't think who you're attracted to is a choice, but I also don't think it matters whether it's a choice or not because it's none of my fucking business or anyone else's as long as it's consensual. It's a non-issue and debating people's consensual sexual activities is a ridiculous waste of everyone's time and should be openly mocked.
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MadMarchHarris said @ 3:07pm GMT on 9th Nov
[Score:1 Underrated]
Absolutely. Not that I'm prone to condemning people's sexual proclivities but I occasionally remember that if I had've grown up 60 or so years ago, as a white man, my current relationship with a Korean woman would've been socially untenable and potentially even illegal. I didn't make any specific choice about preferring her physical features over that of my own race's but not all that long ago it would've lowered me to a similar level to that of a pedophile or something and people who cared about me probably would've tried asking me "Why can't you just be normal?" before shunning me for my deviance.
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pleaides said @ 10:49am GMT on 9th Nov
Couldn't agree more. Well said.
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robotroadkill said[1] @ 4:07pm GMT on 9th Nov
The point is to get religious fundamentalists to back off the 'homosexuality is a sin' argument so that we they can accept equal rights for all. If you can't choose who/what sexually or romantically arouses you (i'd like to hear how the author is apparently able to do this) then it's natural, you aren't actively trying to disobey god, and maybe some people are just gay and that's that. You have to argue with crazy on their level. Sure, in a perfect world it wouldn't matter if its a choice or not, and we'd all be open minded and let people live however they do. But we have to deal with the world as it is, not as it should be and i think an article would give fundamentalists ammo we don't want them to have. It's too easy for nonbelievers like me to forget how powerful the idea of hell is to the fundamentalist, and how to not fight against something 'evil' is considered implicit approval.
Oh, and the reason we care about their opinion is because they vote, i should add. Beyond that no one should give a fuck about what they think. |
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HoZay said[1] @ 7:58pm GMT on 9th Nov
The fundies vote every time, 'cause they believe everything matters. Non-fundies see the same issues as no big deal, and don't bother to vote.
They care more and try harder, and they fight to win any way they can. |
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lalanda said @ 4:42am GMT on 10th Nov
But a lot of religious fundamentalists believe you are born saved or not. Doesn't mean you're not still a sinner. You can be gay, just don't do any gay things and God's ok with it.
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SnappyNipples said @ 5:11pm GMT on 9th Nov
Fundies have both the house and the senate, shit is about to get bad for this demographic segment here in the states.
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sanepride said @ 5:27pm GMT on 9th Nov
At most it's just a temporary setback. Issues like marriage equality are now pretty much in the hands of the judiciary anyway, and the current popular momentum cannot be easily stopped- even in the event of a negative SCOTUS ruling. Even the most devout homophobes in Congress know this is not an issue they should take on.
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ENZ said @ 6:18pm GMT on 9th Nov
Also, the US electorate seem to only remember the last 5 years. Doesn't matter which party hold the majority, people will go "shit hasn't improved, let's see if the other assholes can do better". Back and fourth, again and again...
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sanepride said @ 7:17pm GMT on 9th Nov
Yep, only I'd argue that popular political memory is even shorter, more like 2-3 years.
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Naruki said @ 8:43pm GMT on 9th Nov
What exactly are they remembering? By most rational checklists, the last 5 years have been great compared to the previous administration. We are improving all over.
So what is this 5 years you think they are remembering? 5 years of bullshit lies against Obama, maybe. But if we count that, then their memory could be much longer... just false. |
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ENZ said @ 10:54pm GMT on 9th Nov
I was thinking more along the lines of congress than the President, actually.
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bones said @ 11:12pm GMT on 9th Nov
The continuity of their present timeline also vastly differs from your own, fellow traveler. In their present, the world is more crime-ridden and dangerous than ever, and Obama has been in office 16 years, thus making him responsible for everything that happened during the Bush presidency.
They don't live in the clean, futuristic utopia you and I do, brother, so have a heart and take pity when they tell their tale of a sad and desolate past, for it could be you lost in the sands of time, dear voyager, set adrift in a sea of temporal madness. |
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sanepride said @ 12:18am GMT on 10th Nov
They're remembering that the president is a black muslim who hates America.
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